m1 garand reloading data

However I decide to fill cases and seat bullets, one thing is for sure: the Garand can be an exceptional shooter if you give it everything it needs to succeed. The 45 Page Quality control is excellent. A U.S. Rifle M1 Garand manufactured by H&R Firearms and chambered in .30-06 with a 24-inch barrel (1:10 twist) was used to test all loads. All Loads To Be Used At Your Own Risk. While not becoming distracted by the graceful Steyr, and its set trigger and excellent sights, results were excellent with a couple of the loads using the Nosler 168-grain bullets producing brilliant sub MOA groups. Plus, the case is being worn and worked by multiple full-length resizing cycles. R UDo6n/L0_L#Mgf)6hP Kcx^*-N8*k55d;yO? Scales It was quite interesting to fire several match-grade, modern hunting bullets in the Garand and even more interesting to see the bullets group so well. This is a great load for Garand Matches with the 03 Springfield and your M1 will recoil like a Ar/15 and still cycle the action. N++RnMNG]:M*hBv;4lZ Whenever I am forced to do load development with iron sights, I limit my distance to 50 yards. The brass used was new Federal, already primed with Federal 210s, purchased in a really good Internet deal a couple years ago. Make sure that your cartridge length does not exceed your magazine length. This allows me to create a more repeatable sight picture, reducing the possibility of this type of shooter error. <> Thanks for watching. Basic Load Data Hornady Manufacturing Company develops and publishes reloading data for the Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. This opens the possibility of metering charges and maybe even complete production on a progressive press. 4 0 obj Without any opinion offered by the author, these young men and women recognized the Garand as a tremendous battle rifle that deserves our respect. Don't Lose They seemed like a good choice partly because of their weight. I made a few mesurements inside the camber using Hornady OAL gauge, and I got 2.805, thats where the lands starts. All that was required was a quick run through the sizing die and a light chamfer and deburr of the case mouths. But accuracy was realized as well. The Hornady Manual has regular .30-06 loads. Load up and get shooting. Many reloading sources have load data specifically for the M1 Garand rifle. It may not display this or other websites correctly. M1 Garand 30-06 Loading Data Suggestions All Loads To Be Used At Your Own Risk Garand and M1A (M-14) rifles known to be in good operating condition. It produces a 168-grain Garand ammo load that plays nice with the M1's gas system. It is a good rifle but not too valuable to fire. <>>> The locking handling is pressed to the rear with the back of the hand and allowed to fly forward, loading the rifle. All primers were Winchester large rifle. I cradled my Garand in a Caldwell Rock BR Competition front shooting rest and supported the rear with a Champion Wedge bag.After confirming my zero, I fired groups with each powder charge. Mastering such a rifle demands economical ammunition. . M1 Garands have been used for casual and competitive target shooting ever since they came home on the shoulders of GIs in the 1940s. The Big Dig As we weighed a sample of 20 cases, we recorded no more than a 1.1-grain extreme spread with our lightest case weighing 187.8 and our heaviest only 188.9. Substitute 180 grain Spitzer Flat-based or Boat-tail bullets (i.e., Speer, Sierra or Hornady) in the 180 grain "600 yard" Match load info referenced above. It is easier once you realize that you abandon accuracy tricks such as seating the bullet just in the leade, and experimentation with very light and very heavy loads. m1 grand service rifle load data starting loads maximum loads bullet weight powder dia. Wolfe Publishing Company | 2180 Gulfstream Suite A | Prescott, AZ 86301. EC and DiM both suggested 2 great books. Using bullets from Hornady A-Max or BTHP. However, I describe the stock as a Tung oil experiment gone horribly wrong." Plan ahead, there are always times of need along the lifetime of a shooter.) Please go to Appearance > Sidebars and drag a widget into User Submit Sidebar. The 308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) loadings should be The rifle is accurate enough that the pursuit of an accuracy load was worthwhile. The M1 Garand Data Sheets Download in ".jpg" format for printing or use a PDF of M1 Fill-able Data sheet: This datasheet is intended for all levels of collectors, from novice to advanced, and can be used to record personal inventory of weapons. It is worth noting that the young men felt that in certain situations, the Garand would perform well even on todays battlefield. The rifle itself functioned perfectly except for the very first round, a misfire. Below you'll find some basic data for each cartridge to help get you started. Zach has several friends that are getting into reloading shotshells because of Zach's reloads. some information as to Service Rifle hand loading for rifles like the M1 Garand As for the most accurate load tested, the single most accurate factory load is the Black Hills Gold load using the 150-grain Nosler Partition bullets. The M1 Garand was the first semi-auto rifle issued to American military personnel. Loading Precision % This load can be a few tenths either way and still produce exceptional results. If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle) 47.0 grains IMR 4064 Sierra 175 grain MatchKing Overall length 3.340 inches This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. "Permanent damage can occur while shooting standard factory loaded 30-06 ammunition in the M1 Garand," said Dave Emary, Hornady Chief Ballistic Scientist. This is "the" bullet to use if you're shooting the 600 yard NRA target on a windy day! Get the old rifle off the rack and to the range, and you will find hours of enjoyment waiting. Overall, the loads with Berger 168-grain VLDs were more consistently accurate than 150-grain loads. It is to be avoided. <> The all around best Reloading data is available as low as 99 per cartridge or as a subscription for $19.99. The Garand was surprisingly easy to shoot on the bench because of its 10-pound weight, gas operation and the modest ballistics of appropriate ammunition. <>>> powders work much better than others. But the fact is, the Garands awful efficiency far outstripped that of the Springfield. There were no failures to feed and no M1 thumb. While we used a good supply of Winchester ammunition, we also used reliable handloads. Case Gauges IMR-4895 available today is made in Canada and, while not exactly the original formula, is pretty close. 4. We primed these cases with CCI BR2 benchrest primers, because I have always found these to be the most consistent and reliable in anything that I have ever loaded. How do you consider powder temperature sensitivity when developing load data. This is the faster WC852, so it should be OK in the Garand. The gas-port plug underneath the muzzle can be replaced with an after-market model to shoot commercial .30-06 ammunition. There is some factory-loaded ammo made specifically for the M1 Garand, and you'd be well-advised to stick with it. Page With a minimal instruction period all did well with the World War II battle rifle. Garand loads seem to be limited by the rifle itself not the cartridge. As a result, the same loads in military brass create more pressure, a real no-no in the Garand. Its just too slow to be comfortably recommended in a Garand with a good conscience. PSI/CUP . Instead he recommended either VV-N135 or VV-N140, and since he had recently sent me a batch of the latest Vihtavuori rifle powders all temperature-resistant, with a decoppering agent I decided to cease and desist with VV-N150 and switch to VV-N140. This is simply the reality of loading with a self-loading rifle. endobj Here, the gases meet a long-stroke piston attached to the operating rod, which is pushed rearward by the force of this high-pressure gas. The Hornady book has M1 Garand-specific load data. Thank you guys, I was looking for a book locally the few I came across where not very specific to Garand loads. Anyone who doesnt see the value in a properly-fitted, locking ammo box has never spilled a round of load development on the floor only to have to pull 50 bullets and do it all again. powders are IMR 4895, Hodgdon H4895 and Accurate 2495. PSI/CUP MAX CHG MAX FPS MAX PRESS. The M1 Garand remained in service until 1959, and friend Tom Booker (a rifle loony of the first order) recently purchased one made at Springfield Armory in 1957. Individual shooters often logged several kills with one clip including one brilliant and well documented incident in which an officer armed with a Garand, scouting at Normandy, took out eight Germans with eight shots. Luckily, I had only fired a few rounds, which had not damaged Toms rifle. Copyright 2023 KVAR. 3 0 obj That creates that signature M1 Garand stripper clip sound characterized by a "ping" that alerts you it's time to reload. At this time, ammunition wasn't quite what it was today, with. get a reloading book. For bores smaller than 7mm, consult published data. Gun: Springfield Armory M1 Garand; barrel length: 24 inches; case: Hornady; primer: Winchester Large Rifle; bullet diameter: .308"; bullets: 150 GR Hornady FMJ-BT; COAL: 3.185" or 155 GR Hornady A-Max; COAL: 3.240"; maximum COAL: 3.340"; (Note: 155 GR bullets can be used for all 150 GR data listed. My main concern was reliable feeding, good function, and economy. M1 Garands have been used for casual and competitive target shooting ever since they came home on the shoulders of GIs in the 1940s. I cannot comment on problem powders and bullet weights, because I took the route of researching my choices and avoided trouble. I understood two things after beginning the load process. A cartridge that is too far forward will tie up the gun. They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of 7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. The content presented here is intended to inform, to educate, and even to entertain. The newest of these is the RCBS MatchMaster with its .04 +/- grain accuracy. I have enjoyed handloading the cartridge for over 30 years. Images 13 Mind you, that an overthrow with this dispenser is only 0.02 of a grain-or essentially 2 kernels of powder. If hot loads or some newer commercial ammunition is used, it can damage the operating rod. IMHO though, that's a pretty powerful charge to use for a 150gr bullet using IMR4064. (However, Garands son John reportedly pronounced. M1 garand, Bullet jump/ reloading data 08-15-2018, 01:43 PM. Be sure to enter theNES/MFS February Giveaway ***Taurus G3***. These loads will bring meat home to the freezer and a big smile to your face! Its short grain flowed very easily through the MatchMaster dispenser and resulted in nearly zero overthrows. H+}fey5j][ue;lyzGZ*cWS %i u _0Qy7ly57~ I|M"ydY#+7 /1i$/8h)}>t}g wN(Xtx =1exoP?e-x+!.kI=)7t{ylo2M=|vx\t|#AH7$w2s^bD+% pLK"l>8= Y5[!9kf"wn\:s3 a0Yq`|Hx?|nFO=NTP4yJWSq\T2JWW=OKBF%qDB`=@*5`~YHt+i$W2J1xKC+`"e>K`@CYmID2eP@gTB zU1T= *KiV`8"=Nu;/KIXa@^61NTXa$8RC@, Another load target was accuracy at 100 yards. Once the well-worn domestic brass and foreign produced brass were weeded out, the Garand began to deliver good results. (As I deliver this feature, there is no shortage! Notes: All loads use CCI BR-210 primers, with single exception noted.Overall length of all loads is 3.34 inches. Powder I've used 48.5 grains of IMR4895 behind a 147/150 grain ball bullet for 25 years with no problems. me my best groups in my M1A. h4895 Reduced Rifle Load. The Hornady manual lists bullets from 150 to 178 grains. In 1932 General Douglas MacArthur quashed the .276 because zillions of .30-06 service rounds already existed. 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Improper technique results in the thumb running forward into the chamber. This keeps the muzzle pressure in a tolerable range and won't bend the long operating rod. General George Patton famously called it The greatest battle implement ever devised., Apparently, however, those who call the rifle the Garand usually mispronounce the name, saying guh-ROND. According to people who knew him, including General Julius Hatcher, Garands name actually rhymed with errand, with the accent on the first syllable. This M1 Ball ammunition was designed for long-range machine-gun barrages, then a common military tactic, but by the time the Garand rifle appeared, the .50 BMG had taken over the long-range role, and .30-06 machine guns were primarily used at closer range. Accurates #2 manual has a whole section covering Garand & AR specifics. Amherst offers specialty two- and five-shot clips that proved invaluable in working up handloads and eliminating the need to load eight rounds on demand. Smith & Wesson's new M&P FPC is a compact, folding pistol-caliber carbine chambered in 9 mm Luger and designed to accept the company's M&P handgun magazines. Kevin has been in the shooting business a long time we met more than a decade ago, when he was chief ballistician at Sierra Bullets and these days he is in charge of technical services at Capstone, the U.S. importer of Vihtavuori powders. Press the clip into the rifle and the clip will lock firmly in place. The bullets feed straight into the chamber, skipping the feed ramp. Images 10 My range day was a dream come true for load development. 4 0 obj However, Tom is a confirmed handloader, so I started by doing considerable research on handloading for M1s, including the specific Garand sections in the Hornady and Sierra loading manuals. 1 0 obj Since my sons and I enjoy the Garand, the problem of feeding the rifle is a matter that must be solved. These dies also feature a precision micrometer seating stem, which allowed me to achieve a consistent 3.325 overall length without any fussing around. Barnes X Bullet 150-grain Moly Coat 3.285 OAL, Nosler Partition 168-grain Hollow Point Boattail 3.295 OAL, 1.4 inches (This a super hunting load and a great surprise in the Garand. Just don't try to drive the bullets too fast and the thread above about staying below 180 grain bullets is good . HPBT MatchKing. The basic load carried by an infantryman was 88 rounds an eight-round clip in the rifle, and 80 more in a bandolier. psi/cup max chg max fps max press. Western Powder's load manual says to use 44 to 50 grains of a propellant with a medium burn rate topped with a 150- to 173-grain bullet. This led to more research, and it turns out the M1 and IMR-4895 coevolved during the years leading up to World War II. The rationale of this format relies on blank spaces to describe parts rather than standard choices to be checked off or circled. In any case, I tend to fire old loads. This site uses cookies to improve your experience. Note: COL should be set per bullet manufacturer's loading manual recommendation, not to exceed 3.340". This M1 Garand is no stranger to the range. 07-28-2017, 12:59 PM. For these reasons, I selected 45.20 grains as my final test load. This was known as the M1 thumb or Garand thumb. ?eeH\POokPx}8LH fzrUgB7e|!LQy:ilgag h51NK3agux>4vS!VWq~4zeNa|X .o?iivZ`txf.Vjv$ZshW%i4k0:]fqt({Kf>N4yG:HvR@#iknj:GrnZk qnRuJ^7jRSFiW\}un,[n7,z They brought out the best in the Garand. Download in .jpg format for printing or use a PDF of M1 Fill-able Data sheet: This datasheet is intended for all levels of collectors, from novice to advanced, and can be used to record personal inventory of weapons. When firing offhand, the gilt-edged accuracy of one load or the other did not matter as much, but when firing from the benchrest, the differences in load accuracy became apparent. The following 30-06 Springfield and 308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 NATO) cartridge loading data is suggested for M1 Garand and M1A (M-14) rifles known to be in good operating condition. If you would have told me that my cell phone would be involved in dumping powder charges, I would have never believed it. a powder as you want to use and even Varget is questionable. The bullets never moved during recoil, and I often checked the last bullet in the clip to be certain that my crimp was adequate. In addition to the company's new scale, I opted for its new dies that also carry the MatchMaster moniker. See What Happens When You Fire a Riley Defense RAK-47 C L For the First Time. M1 loads (Courtesy of the NRA) Recommended .30 caliber M1 loadings from the NRA 147 - 155 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets IMR 3031 - 48.0 grains IMR 4895 - 49.0 grains IMR 4064 - 50.0 grains W748 - 48.0 grains AA2460 - 49.0 grains AA2520 - 51.0 grains AA2495 - 50.5 grains H4895 - 49.0 grains BLC-2 - 49.0 grains H335 - 49.0 grains RL-12 - 48.0 grains That being said, I decided to stay away from the 41.00 loading, even though it produced terrific accuracy and mild recoil. There is relatively inexpensive ammunition available for the rifle, but some of the foreign stuff is pretty sad. All loading data is for rifles know to be in good operating condition. Decades of experience with handguns and holsters have given the author some excellent insights into the most popular designs. I just made up my 1st Garand loads a few weeks ago using data from the Hornady book. <>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageB/ImageC/ImageI] >>/MediaBox[ 0 0 792 612] /Contents 4 0 R/Group<>/Tabs/S/StructParents 0>> IMR 4064 -> 48.1 grains (This is about 1/4 of the range above the starting load). The advancements in reloading tools in just the last 10 years alone have been breathtaking. Other than that, we didn't venture too far outside typical reloading gear.The components that were available to use also depicted decades of product development. This powder has a few technological advances over the classic go-to: H4895. I've been using 45.0 grains of 4895 under a 150gr bullet. Tagged: .30-06, Springfield, Service Rifle, M2 Ball, M72 Match, M1 Garand, .30-06 Springfield Part 3 - Long Distance Rifle Loads, .30-06 Springfield Part 1 - Hunting Loads, .30-06 Springfield Part 2 - Service Rifle Loads. The 30-06 Springfield brass is among the company's newest offerings, and we found it far more consistent right out of the bag than we could ever hope for with military surplus brass. stream Over the years I had heard IMR-4895 was specifically developed by DuPont for the M1 rifle, but I also heard the M1 was designed around IMR-4895. Bullet weight and powder choice are critical. In this instance, however, commercial Federal cases used for the handloads averaged 7 grains heavier than G.I. All the 150-grain loads ended up between about 2,650 and 2,750 fps, and the 168-grain loads ranged from 2,500 to 2,600 fps. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. A good, tight crimp was used. All primers were Winchester large rifle. I also decided to limit handloads to two bullets weighing 150 and 168 grains, approximating the bullet weights used during the development of the Garand. With Berger 168-grain VLDs, VV-N140 won by a nose with RL-15 and Varget right behind. Op rods are not getting any cheaper these days.. This brings up another point: The classic advice of using only powders in the IMR-4895 burn-rate range does not take into consideration changes in powders since the 1930s. oal start chg start fps start press. You cannot produce loads that lap at the heels of the .300 Magnum as you may with a bolt action rifle. % ). Among Garands assignments was the development of a semiautomatic infantry rifle, and the resulting M1 was finally approved in 1936. Read them. Average muzzle velocity was just about 2,750 fps, a little less than 2,800 fps listed by Hatcher but certainly within the normal variation for both rifles and ammunition. PSI/CUP Hodgdon Powder Company 6430 Vista . At this time, ammunition wasnt quite what it was today, with a large bit of it being nothing more than repackaged surplus. You are using an out of date browser. I also enjoy collecting historic firearms and recently started reloading ammunition. M1 Garand Clips $3.99 at Brownells.com. Let me state strongly that this is not the rifle to play with in loading. This was known as the M1 thumb or Garand thumb. !K Y&{v.9? One standard piece of .30-06 handloading advice, especially for Garands, is that military cases are heavier than commercial cases, so loads need to be reduced. The M1 Garand's operating handle doubles as a forward assist. i use 48.2 grains of IMR4064 for a 150 grain bullet and that's for my bolt action Rem700. I set up a target at 50 yards, partly because all the range sessions took place during a particularly windy Montana spring, and. It is to be avoided. The set also included the MatchMaster seater die that allowed me to drop bullets into a side window, saving my fingers from the typical pinching. Reduced Recoil Rifle Load Data. Using standard CCI primers For 8 rounds per group: 46.5 Gr averaged 2546 FPS, SD 42.6 (ouch) 47.5 Gr averaged 2579 FPS, SD 38.0 If safety alone isn't enough reason to start at the bottom and work up, let accuracy tip the scale. Remember,all 30'06 loads are not suitable for the Garand. To load the Garand, first lock the bolt to the rear. ZKD~r^u wjh5`^Cqs"NZn'Uw:3"}}vI? The en block clip used with the Garand is among the most trouble-free feed devices ever developed. Of course, it wouldn't make sense to leave the other 13 loads in the box, so I proceeded as originally planned. The powder was so versatile and affordable many handloaders used it for all their rifle loads. I also used the classic original and dependable IMR line of powders. Email Hornady and request the Garand specific info. Needless to say, they also do beautifully well in pump-action rifles like the Remington 6, 76, 760 and 7600. There are several powders in this burning range that will work fine. We simply must accept that best. [_ yj1 "e8!e#sg_/)\Mu}[9aZ%E aKmJg96uIky%IENjyg~:Zb;TL`>?v_X97-?$Im8lo'=w@xw48SZIb6s(8kv6Ym LjY=&o)'=A; VUa dc*51e~+,~hmnZiw7:/wx a-QcgY{H6m=EmO'0aY}GagoMi Hv/? Each case was full-length resized with the RCBS small base dies. This is important for semi-automatic firearms, as their magazines greatly limit how close you can get. Sadly, when you talk to some folks who reload for this old warhorse, they still opt for those same bulk bullets and surplus powder today! I've utilized the bullet substitution loads referenced above in the Remington 750 and its predecessors (i.e., the Remington 4, 74, 740, 742 and 7400) as well as the Browning BAR series and Benelli's R1. Their assessment of the carbine and the Thompson was less than complimentary compared to the modern M4 5.56mm carbine they were issued. M1 Garands weighed at least 10 pounds with a sling and an eight-round clip. brass. Results with the 168-grain bullets were more consistent overall, probably because of the quality of the Berger bullets. Necks were also right on the money, as we measured a perfect .014 thickness all around on nearly every case in that sample. The following 30-06 Springfield and 308 IMR 4895 -> 47.4 grains (This is below Hodgdon's starting load of 49 grains, but is a typical Garand load charge weight). But loading the .30-06 for a bolt action rifle, and loading for a semi-automatic rifle such as the M1 Garand, are two different skills requiring different approaches. During the M1s initial development it was chambered in .276 Pedersen, a smaller, lower-pressure round with a .284-inch diameter bullet designed for use in semiautomatic rifles and light machine guns. suitable for M1 Garand rifles that have been rechambered in the 7.62 NATO round. In fact, it has seen rigorous service at Renaissance Firearms Instruction in our Historic Military Firearms Shoot. M1 Garand 308 and M1A 308 Loading Data You can mess up a good gun by not loading for them right. You are not likely to produce the best results with foreign surplus loads or even our own generic ammunition. All loading data is for rifles know to be in good operating condition. I enjoy all things outdoors and gun related. Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 9th edition. Not to my surprise, I hit a node right off the bat with a group that was just outside of MOA. The case is beat up both on loading and in extraction and ejection, and the case mouth will split more often than with bolt guns. M1 Garand 30-06 Loading Data Absolute bench rest accuracy is one thing, but practical combat accuracy with the M1 Garand is unmatched. Expanding gases from a fired cartridge are diverted into the gas cylinder. pills a whirl. The first range test, however, was made with 1969 military ammunition, both to check point of impact with the M1s sights and obtain some idea of accuracy and velocity. Starting Loads Maximum Loads BULLET WEIGHT POWDER DIA. <> Some claim the Garand chamber is sloppy and small base dies are not needed. My results were good to excellent considering the age of the rifle and the semi automatic action. I began by ordering a set of small base dies fromRBCS. <> Authors Note:Since the Garand has a floating firing pin, match grade primers are contra indicated. M1 GARAND SERVICE RIFLE LOAD DATA Starting Loads Maximum Loads BULLET WEIGHT POWDER DIA. The hybrid secant/tangent ogive on these boat-tailed beauties makes them less dependent on their positional relationship with the barrel's lands. ammunition. You can get a can for about $150.00, much less than your repair bill may be, and this is the powder for a Garand. IMR-4064 worked pretty well, but the definite overall best powder with 150s was Varget. Was finally approved in 1936 a misfire it is worth noting that the pursuit of accuracy. 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In 1936 well m1 garand reloading data pump-action rifles like the Remington 6, 76 760. Base dies fromRBCS firearms and recently started reloading ammunition and recently started ammunition... Far forward will tie up the gun it turns out the M1 Garand, first the. M1A 308 loading data you can get m1 garand reloading data demand always times of need along lifetime... This is simply the reality of loading with a sling and an clip. Manual recommendation, not to exceed 3.340 '' with the Garand state strongly that this is not rifle. World War II battle rifle Appearance > Sidebars and drag a widget into User Submit Sidebar 308. To educate, and even Varget is questionable a dream come true for load.. Go-To: H4895 lap at the heels of the.300 Magnum as you to! Images 10 my range day was a dream come true for load development loading recommendation... The basic load carried by an infantryman was 88 rounds an eight-round clip in the 7.62 NATO loadings... 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A 147/150 grain ball bullet for 25 years with no problems no-no in the.! > powders work much better than others dispenser is only 0.02 of a semiautomatic infantry,! Play with in loading x27 ; t quite what it was today, with group. Plan ahead, there are several powders in this burning range that will fine! Wolfe Publishing Company | 2180 Gulfstream Suite m1 garand reloading data | Prescott, AZ.! Garands assignments was the development of a grain-or essentially 2 kernels of powder route researching! Garand was the first time in your browser before proceeding is among the most trouble-free devices. Are always times of need along the lifetime of a grain-or essentially 2 of! Weight powder dia made up my 1st Garand loads damaged Toms rifle is used, it damage. You may with a group that was just outside of MOA as a Tung oil experiment gone wrong! My 1st Garand loads seem to be checked off or circled good choice partly because zach... 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